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	<title>Comments on: Um&#8230;Ron?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://thecrossedpond.com/2008/02/25/umron/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2008/02/25/umron/</link>
	<description>"A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one."</description>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2008/02/25/umron/comment-page-2/#comment-9051</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 14:19:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=2751#comment-9051</guid>
		<description>When the anti-smoking people try to do that, there is an element of making smokers feel pathetic by representing their future like that, yeah.

Whatever you feel about the ad yourself, I find it hard to believe that you don&#039;t think it was aimed at the sort of effect, in general, that Regular Jack and the rest of us are talking about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When the anti-smoking people try to do that, there is an element of making smokers feel pathetic by representing their future like that, yeah.</p>
<p>Whatever you feel about the ad yourself, I find it hard to believe that you don&#8217;t think it was aimed at the sort of effect, in general, that Regular Jack and the rest of us are talking about.</p>
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		<title>By: Redland Jack</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2008/02/25/umron/comment-page-2/#comment-9044</link>
		<dc:creator>Redland Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 07:15:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=2751#comment-9044</guid>
		<description>When the anti-smoking people show me a picture of a gnarly old dude with a hole in his throat, are they indicating that all smokers are like that?

When the local animal shelter is trying to get me to adopt a pet, do they show a commercial with a cute puppy or a commercial with a mangy, diseased mongrel?

When the pro-immigration people show me a television ad with a handsome Mexican fellow serving as part of the volunteer fire brigade, are they using that commercial to extrapolate an evaluation of an entire class of people? Is this okay? Are only the pro-immigration people allowed to show photos and run commercials, since the opposition will necessarily be painting people of a different race in a negative light?

It may be that I&#039;m missing the point. That there was something visceral and vile in the photograph. 

To Brad&#039;s point: &#039;To put it another way, when the guy who ordered those flyers made (not, I’m sure, Ron himself), do you think he told his graphics guy “Find me a picture of a guy who looks unqualified to receive public entitlements?” or do you think he said “Find me a picture of a lazy Mexican?”

Honestly.&#039;

I could see him saying either one, although he would have to augment the first with, &quot;Oh, and make sure the picture is of a Mexican, since the graphic is regarding illegal immigration.&quot;


To some extent, I think your question underlines the most salient point of the discussion. That is, the fact that the image depicted (if an image was needed at all, as Rojas noted earlier) a Mexican individual was a necessity. There&#039;s almost no image they could show that would make any sense if it didn&#039;t contain a Mexican. Given they are against immigration it seems unreasonable to expect them to depict the individual shown in a positive light. Since they wanted to show a negative image and they were (essentially) required to show a Mexican, the fact that the eventual image turns out to depict a Mexican in a negative light strikes me as wholly unsurprising.

I think maybe this is just something that we can&#039;t find the common ground on which to agree. I&#039;m willing to concede that I may just be missing some requisite life experience, which hobbles my understanding of the issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When the anti-smoking people show me a picture of a gnarly old dude with a hole in his throat, are they indicating that all smokers are like that?</p>
<p>When the local animal shelter is trying to get me to adopt a pet, do they show a commercial with a cute puppy or a commercial with a mangy, diseased mongrel?</p>
<p>When the pro-immigration people show me a television ad with a handsome Mexican fellow serving as part of the volunteer fire brigade, are they using that commercial to extrapolate an evaluation of an entire class of people? Is this okay? Are only the pro-immigration people allowed to show photos and run commercials, since the opposition will necessarily be painting people of a different race in a negative light?</p>
<p>It may be that I&#8217;m missing the point. That there was something visceral and vile in the photograph. </p>
<p>To Brad&#8217;s point: &#8216;To put it another way, when the guy who ordered those flyers made (not, I’m sure, Ron himself), do you think he told his graphics guy “Find me a picture of a guy who looks unqualified to receive public entitlements?” or do you think he said “Find me a picture of a lazy Mexican?”</p>
<p>Honestly.&#8217;</p>
<p>I could see him saying either one, although he would have to augment the first with, &#8220;Oh, and make sure the picture is of a Mexican, since the graphic is regarding illegal immigration.&#8221;</p>
<p>To some extent, I think your question underlines the most salient point of the discussion. That is, the fact that the image depicted (if an image was needed at all, as Rojas noted earlier) a Mexican individual was a necessity. There&#8217;s almost no image they could show that would make any sense if it didn&#8217;t contain a Mexican. Given they are against immigration it seems unreasonable to expect them to depict the individual shown in a positive light. Since they wanted to show a negative image and they were (essentially) required to show a Mexican, the fact that the eventual image turns out to depict a Mexican in a negative light strikes me as wholly unsurprising.</p>
<p>I think maybe this is just something that we can&#8217;t find the common ground on which to agree. I&#8217;m willing to concede that I may just be missing some requisite life experience, which hobbles my understanding of the issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2008/02/25/umron/comment-page-2/#comment-9042</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 04:45:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=2751#comment-9042</guid>
		<description>The whole point of them using the photo is extrapolation of evaluations of an entire class of people. That&#039;s what, in large part, we are objecting to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The whole point of them using the photo is extrapolation of evaluations of an entire class of people. That&#8217;s what, in large part, we are objecting to.</p>
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		<title>By: anon4rp</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2008/02/25/umron/comment-page-2/#comment-9035</link>
		<dc:creator>anon4rp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 00:03:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=2751#comment-9035</guid>
		<description>Mm.  Thank you for your explanation Jack.  It&#039;s still hard for me to understand how people can extrapolate evaluations for an entire class of people based on one photo, but if you say they do, then I&#039;ll take your word for it.

1) It may be not be the way most people see it, according to you, but it is honestly the way I see it.
2) There are far worse types, I assure you.  The photo is quite tame.
3) That&#039;s your interpretation, I don&#039;t think the flyer goes so far as to say &quot;all&quot; illegal immigrants are &quot;utter looser leeches.&quot;  You may be reading in your own prejudices here.
4) Admirably in the sense that it achieves the goal it set out to do, not that the goal is admirable.
5) That seems more of a fault of the target audience than anything else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mm.  Thank you for your explanation Jack.  It&#8217;s still hard for me to understand how people can extrapolate evaluations for an entire class of people based on one photo, but if you say they do, then I&#8217;ll take your word for it.</p>
<p>1) It may be not be the way most people see it, according to you, but it is honestly the way I see it.<br />
2) There are far worse types, I assure you.  The photo is quite tame.<br />
3) That&#8217;s your interpretation, I don&#8217;t think the flyer goes so far as to say &#8220;all&#8221; illegal immigrants are &#8220;utter looser leeches.&#8221;  You may be reading in your own prejudices here.<br />
4) Admirably in the sense that it achieves the goal it set out to do, not that the goal is admirable.<br />
5) That seems more of a fault of the target audience than anything else.</p>
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		<title>By: tessellated</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2008/02/25/umron/comment-page-2/#comment-9034</link>
		<dc:creator>tessellated</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 23:39:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=2751#comment-9034</guid>
		<description>ITT: anon4rp trolls half of this site&#039;s bloggers with his &quot;I don&#039;t geddit&quot; routine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ITT: anon4rp trolls half of this site&#8217;s bloggers with his &#8220;I don&#8217;t geddit&#8221; routine.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2008/02/25/umron/comment-page-2/#comment-9032</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 23:17:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=2751#comment-9032</guid>
		<description>anonrp, the GOP, or any other establishment,  should be enormously thankful that you and your gigantic, willfully naive tin ear is not helping with their campaign flyers.  
1) You don&#039;t divorce the words from the picture; the picture is more important, the words speak to the picture.  Your preferred method of analysis is not the way it was designed or the way people will see it.
2) The picutre is not &quot;an example of a possible illegal immigrant&quot; it is a pciture of the worst type of illegaal immigrant and it is clearly designed to represent the typical immigrant.
3) &quot;Is it the painting illegal immigrants in the best possible light? &quot; No shit, you think?  It doesnt because it is intentionally trying to paint them all as utter looser leeches.
4) &quot;No, it is trying to paint illegal immigrants as socially undesirable, and it performs admirably in that regard.&quot; Aside from your egregious use of the word &quot;admirably&quot; this is the only honest thing you have said.
5) It may not be becuase of their RACE to you, but it certainly is part of the package for the target audience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>anonrp, the GOP, or any other establishment,  should be enormously thankful that you and your gigantic, willfully naive tin ear is not helping with their campaign flyers.<br />
1) You don&#8217;t divorce the words from the picture; the picture is more important, the words speak to the picture.  Your preferred method of analysis is not the way it was designed or the way people will see it.<br />
2) The picutre is not &#8220;an example of a possible illegal immigrant&#8221; it is a pciture of the worst type of illegaal immigrant and it is clearly designed to represent the typical immigrant.<br />
3) &#8220;Is it the painting illegal immigrants in the best possible light? &#8221; No shit, you think?  It doesnt because it is intentionally trying to paint them all as utter looser leeches.<br />
4) &#8220;No, it is trying to paint illegal immigrants as socially undesirable, and it performs admirably in that regard.&#8221; Aside from your egregious use of the word &#8220;admirably&#8221; this is the only honest thing you have said.<br />
5) It may not be becuase of their RACE to you, but it certainly is part of the package for the target audience.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2008/02/25/umron/comment-page-2/#comment-9027</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 22:09:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=2751#comment-9027</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like to know what Paul thinks should happen to the Social Security money some of those illegals have paid into the fund, actually.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like to know what Paul thinks should happen to the Social Security money some of those illegals have paid into the fund, actually.</p>
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		<title>By: anon4rp</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2008/02/25/umron/comment-page-2/#comment-9026</link>
		<dc:creator>anon4rp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 22:05:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=2751#comment-9026</guid>
		<description>&quot;But look at it this way: the intellectual argument against providing social services is not “…because they are dirty gang tatooed overweight smoking shirtless slovenly Mexicans”.&quot;

Let&#039;s see what the flyer says:
If You Sneak Into America
Ron Paul Says - No Social Security For You!

It&#039;s time we end Social Security payments to illegal aliens.
That is why Ron Paul sponsored the Social Security for Americans Only Act in Congress.

From the text of the flyer, it appears the intellectual argument is:
If you are an illegal immigrant, Ron Paul believes you should not get Social Security payments.

Now if we put the picture into the discussion, then can conclude that the picture is an example of a possible illegal immigrant who might want Social Security payments in the future.

Is the picture an inaccurate example of such a possible illegal immigrant?  I would say no, it is not inaccurate.  Is it the painting illegal immigrants in the best possible light?  No, it is trying to paint illegal immigrants as socially undesirable, and it performs admirably in that regard.  Is it true that some illegal immigrants are socially undesirable?  Yes, undoubtedly.  Is this because of their RACE?  No. It is because of the fact that they are ILLEGAL.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But look at it this way: the intellectual argument against providing social services is not “…because they are dirty gang tatooed overweight smoking shirtless slovenly Mexicans”.&#8221;</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s see what the flyer says:<br />
If You Sneak Into America<br />
Ron Paul Says &#8211; No Social Security For You!</p>
<p>It&#8217;s time we end Social Security payments to illegal aliens.<br />
That is why Ron Paul sponsored the Social Security for Americans Only Act in Congress.</p>
<p>From the text of the flyer, it appears the intellectual argument is:<br />
If you are an illegal immigrant, Ron Paul believes you should not get Social Security payments.</p>
<p>Now if we put the picture into the discussion, then can conclude that the picture is an example of a possible illegal immigrant who might want Social Security payments in the future.</p>
<p>Is the picture an inaccurate example of such a possible illegal immigrant?  I would say no, it is not inaccurate.  Is it the painting illegal immigrants in the best possible light?  No, it is trying to paint illegal immigrants as socially undesirable, and it performs admirably in that regard.  Is it true that some illegal immigrants are socially undesirable?  Yes, undoubtedly.  Is this because of their RACE?  No. It is because of the fact that they are ILLEGAL.</p>
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		<title>By: Rojas</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2008/02/25/umron/comment-page-2/#comment-9025</link>
		<dc:creator>Rojas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 22:05:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=2751#comment-9025</guid>
		<description>Brad #47:  I kind of agree with both of you actually.

A small-government movement CAN arise from the ashes of the Paul campaign, and probably cannot arise from elsewhere.  And yet...it is going to have to be a movement completely shorn of the neo-Confederate, conspiracy, and radical anti-immigration elements.  No movement involving those groups is sustainable at the national level.  This campaign has proven that conclusively.

And the Paul campaign, at this point, is not merely giving us no help in creating such a movement, it is actively catering to those elements which would inevitably destroy any such effort.

It&#039;s a hell of a mess.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brad #47:  I kind of agree with both of you actually.</p>
<p>A small-government movement CAN arise from the ashes of the Paul campaign, and probably cannot arise from elsewhere.  And yet&#8230;it is going to have to be a movement completely shorn of the neo-Confederate, conspiracy, and radical anti-immigration elements.  No movement involving those groups is sustainable at the national level.  This campaign has proven that conclusively.</p>
<p>And the Paul campaign, at this point, is not merely giving us no help in creating such a movement, it is actively catering to those elements which would inevitably destroy any such effort.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a hell of a mess.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2008/02/25/umron/comment-page-1/#comment-9024</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 21:55:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=2751#comment-9024</guid>
		<description>I am saying that attracting the one audience will affect the other. That they are different audiences hardly means that one will not be affected by what you do to win the other (in fact, that&#039;s grim political reality pretty much all the time). I don&#039;t want a movement made up of just Paulites but I think that is the risk you run if you use Paul to attract those people, because the rest (not currently Paulites) just won&#039;t want to be in same room. Thus, given the choice, I&#039;d do without the Paulites that won&#039;t come without Ron Paul branding. That&#039;s the least-worst outcome, for me.

Also, I don&#039;t particularly care whether this movement is entirely contained within the Republican Party (although it seems to me that its Centre of Gravity will be in GOP-land).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am saying that attracting the one audience will affect the other. That they are different audiences hardly means that one will not be affected by what you do to win the other (in fact, that&#8217;s grim political reality pretty much all the time). I don&#8217;t want a movement made up of just Paulites but I think that is the risk you run if you use Paul to attract those people, because the rest (not currently Paulites) just won&#8217;t want to be in same room. Thus, given the choice, I&#8217;d do without the Paulites that won&#8217;t come without Ron Paul branding. That&#8217;s the least-worst outcome, for me.</p>
<p>Also, I don&#8217;t particularly care whether this movement is entirely contained within the Republican Party (although it seems to me that its Centre of Gravity will be in GOP-land).</p>
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