Comments on: A Turning Point in America’s Exportation of Torture http://thecrossedpond.com/2008/01/25/a-turning-point-in-americas-exportation-of-torture/ "A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one." Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:18:48 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Adam http://thecrossedpond.com/2008/01/25/a-turning-point-in-americas-exportation-of-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-7184 Adam Sun, 27 Jan 2008 23:56:37 +0000 http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=2502#comment-7184 I would also favour the courts taking a really dim view of evidence presented in court that was obtained from outside conventional channels. I would also favour the courts taking a really dim view of evidence presented in court that was obtained from outside conventional channels.

]]> By: Redland Jack http://thecrossedpond.com/2008/01/25/a-turning-point-in-americas-exportation-of-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-7164 Redland Jack Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:06:06 +0000 http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=2502#comment-7164 I would expect that torture would be similar to illegal search/seizure in this regard. Though perhaps that is not a useful comparison? I would expect that torture would be similar to illegal search/seizure in this regard. Though perhaps that is not a useful comparison?

]]> By: Adam http://thecrossedpond.com/2008/01/25/a-turning-point-in-americas-exportation-of-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-7159 Adam Sun, 27 Jan 2008 19:51:39 +0000 http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=2502#comment-7159 All I think is that individuals in the CIA, if they fear potential indictment for torture, will use torture less. All I think is that individuals in the CIA, if they fear potential indictment for torture, will use torture less.

]]> By: James http://thecrossedpond.com/2008/01/25/a-turning-point-in-americas-exportation-of-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-7157 James Sun, 27 Jan 2008 19:17:01 +0000 http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=2502#comment-7157 I think you are more optimistic than I am, but I certainly have no problem with at least trying to take the high road. Whether it genuinely does more than sooth the consciences of good people is debatable, but it is nevertheless far better than any other alternative. On that I think we can all agree. I think you are more optimistic than I am, but I certainly have no problem with at least trying to take the high road. Whether it genuinely does more than sooth the consciences of good people is debatable, but it is nevertheless far better than any other alternative. On that I think we can all agree.

]]> By: Adam http://thecrossedpond.com/2008/01/25/a-turning-point-in-americas-exportation-of-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-7156 Adam Sun, 27 Jan 2008 19:04:52 +0000 http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=2502#comment-7156 I don't think that's true at all. Sure, there are some people who for reasons of being psycho or under great stress will commit torture. There are, however, a lot more that may end up doing it if the message that they are not to is insufficiently strong -- that's true of just about <em>all</em> behaviour, particularly where there may be emotional satisfaction involved -- and that's the responsibility, ultimately, of the administration and the Congress, who between them have the power to set the strength of that message. None of that is based on idealism, incidentally; it's based on my cynicism about human weaknesses and emotional frailties. I don’t think that’s true at all. Sure, there are some people who for reasons of being psycho or under great stress will commit torture. There are, however, a lot more that may end up doing it if the message that they are not to is insufficiently strong — that’s true of just about all behaviour, particularly where there may be emotional satisfaction involved — and that’s the responsibility, ultimately, of the administration and the Congress, who between them have the power to set the strength of that message.

None of that is based on idealism, incidentally; it’s based on my cynicism about human weaknesses and emotional frailties.

]]> By: James http://thecrossedpond.com/2008/01/25/a-turning-point-in-americas-exportation-of-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-7153 James Sun, 27 Jan 2008 17:47:23 +0000 http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=2502#comment-7153 The only thing that will affect the amount of torture that "we" might do would be near draconian punishment for those found to have been involved. While outlawing and openly disapproving it is of course the right thing to do, I highly question what affect it will have on those who do not operate in the light of day. I know it is a cynical view, Adam, I admit that. I do believe it is not an unrealistic one though. Certainly this nonsense about being ambiguous as to what constitutes torture doesn't help things one bit. The only thing that will affect the amount of torture that “we” might do would be near draconian punishment for those found to have been involved. While outlawing and openly disapproving it is of course the right thing to do, I highly question what affect it will have on those who do not operate in the light of day. I know it is a cynical view, Adam, I admit that. I do believe it is not an unrealistic one though. Certainly this nonsense about being ambiguous as to what constitutes torture doesn’t help things one bit.

]]> By: Adam http://thecrossedpond.com/2008/01/25/a-turning-point-in-americas-exportation-of-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-7149 Adam Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:32:21 +0000 http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=2502#comment-7149 But seriously, you think there's nothing that will make any difference to the amount of torture? That seems to me to be an odd point of view. But seriously, you think there’s nothing that will make any difference to the amount of torture? That seems to me to be an odd point of view.

]]> By: Adam http://thecrossedpond.com/2008/01/25/a-turning-point-in-americas-exportation-of-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-7148 Adam Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:20:58 +0000 http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=2502#comment-7148 Now <em>that</em> would appear to be a recipe for all sorts of crime. Are an Aleister Crowley devotee? Now that would appear to be a recipe for all sorts of crime. Are an Aleister Crowley devotee?

]]> By: James http://thecrossedpond.com/2008/01/25/a-turning-point-in-americas-exportation-of-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-7140 James Sun, 27 Jan 2008 07:03:12 +0000 http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=2502#comment-7140 Do what makes you feel better. Do what makes you feel better.

]]> By: Adam http://thecrossedpond.com/2008/01/25/a-turning-point-in-americas-exportation-of-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-7121 Adam Sun, 27 Jan 2008 02:13:54 +0000 http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=2502#comment-7121 You can excuse every aspect of human behaviour by saying "it's always happened". Of course, if you use that in an argument about whether that behaviour ought to be illegal, you are basically saying that there should be no laws. Child sex abuse? Always happened. Should it be unambiguously illegal? If so, why not torture? Hey, what if the government used child sex abuse as torture? Would that be OK? You can excuse every aspect of human behaviour by saying “it’s always happened”. Of course, if you use that in an argument about whether that behaviour ought to be illegal, you are basically saying that there should be no laws. Child sex abuse? Always happened. Should it be unambiguously illegal? If so, why not torture? Hey, what if the government used child sex abuse as torture? Would that be OK?

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