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	<title>Comments on: Cease and Desist</title>
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	<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2007/09/20/cease-and-desist/</link>
	<description>"A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one."</description>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2007/09/20/cease-and-desist/comment-page-1/#comment-3641</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Sep 2007 16:34:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=1494#comment-3641</guid>
		<description>Usmanov may &lt;a href=&quot;http://e-clectig.blogspot.com/2007/09/dadl-nid-enllib.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;have &lt;/a&gt; to find himself a Welsh-speaking lawyer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Usmanov may <a href="http://e-clectig.blogspot.com/2007/09/dadl-nid-enllib.html" rel="nofollow">have </a> to find himself a Welsh-speaking lawyer.</p>
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		<title>By: Rojas</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2007/09/20/cease-and-desist/comment-page-1/#comment-3637</link>
		<dc:creator>Rojas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Sep 2007 03:03:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=1494#comment-3637</guid>
		<description>Um...

...now that everybody in the universe is linking to this post, and proudly listing us among those brave souls willing to stand up in defense of free speech...

...um...

...I&#039;d just like to make clear that PERSONALLY, UNLIKE ADAM, I have the utmost respect and admiration for Mr. Usmanov.

In particular, I wish to express my admiration for Mr. Usmanov&#039;s skillful and handsome team of lawyers.  They, and he, are wonderful souls, paragons of decency, sportsmanship, and above all, &lt;i&gt;restraint&lt;/i&gt;.  That last being, surely, the most admirable of all human virtues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Um&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8230;now that everybody in the universe is linking to this post, and proudly listing us among those brave souls willing to stand up in defense of free speech&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8230;um&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8230;I&#8217;d just like to make clear that PERSONALLY, UNLIKE ADAM, I have the utmost respect and admiration for Mr. Usmanov.</p>
<p>In particular, I wish to express my admiration for Mr. Usmanov&#8217;s skillful and handsome team of lawyers.  They, and he, are wonderful souls, paragons of decency, sportsmanship, and above all, <i>restraint</i>.  That last being, surely, the most admirable of all human virtues.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2007/09/20/cease-and-desist/comment-page-1/#comment-3612</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 17:18:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=1494#comment-3612</guid>
		<description>Does this mean Brad can sue me for calling him a pin-headed geek?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does this mean Brad can sue me for calling him a pin-headed geek?</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2007/09/20/cease-and-desist/comment-page-1/#comment-3596</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 02:40:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=1494#comment-3596</guid>
		<description>The significant majority, I believe, of the surveillance cameras are privately owned. But it&#039;s not without concern (although there&#039;s no expectation of privacy in a public place, clearly).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The significant majority, I believe, of the surveillance cameras are privately owned. But it&#8217;s not without concern (although there&#8217;s no expectation of privacy in a public place, clearly).</p>
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		<title>By: Misanthrope</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2007/09/20/cease-and-desist/comment-page-1/#comment-3594</link>
		<dc:creator>Misanthrope</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 02:25:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=1494#comment-3594</guid>
		<description>Except this a UK ISP, correct?  So shouldn&#039;t your accusation reference some god-awful, inartfully named mass of goo?  Spotted dick or something?

The UK libel laws, combined with a lack of something akin to the US first ammendment, strikes me as unusually intolerable for a free people.  Of course, the UK probably still has habeus corpus and anti-torture provisions.  So win some loose some, I guess.  Then again, we don&#039;t have ASBOs.  Or a growing government controlled public security camera system, a la V for Vendetta.  So, I&#039;ll stay here I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Except this a UK ISP, correct?  So shouldn&#8217;t your accusation reference some god-awful, inartfully named mass of goo?  Spotted dick or something?</p>
<p>The UK libel laws, combined with a lack of something akin to the US first ammendment, strikes me as unusually intolerable for a free people.  Of course, the UK probably still has habeus corpus and anti-torture provisions.  So win some loose some, I guess.  Then again, we don&#8217;t have ASBOs.  Or a growing government controlled public security camera system, a la V for Vendetta.  So, I&#8217;ll stay here I think.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2007/09/20/cease-and-desist/comment-page-1/#comment-3593</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 01:46:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=1494#comment-3593</guid>
		<description>No, no, why do &lt;em&gt;you&lt;/em&gt; hate freedom?

You&#039;re the sort who&#039;d want to cut and run whilst defying the constitutional option.

Also, I am pretty sure that you don&#039;t like apple pie, either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, no, why do <em>you</em> hate freedom?</p>
<p>You&#8217;re the sort who&#8217;d want to cut and run whilst defying the constitutional option.</p>
<p>Also, I am pretty sure that you don&#8217;t like apple pie, either.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2007/09/20/cease-and-desist/comment-page-1/#comment-3592</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 01:38:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=1494#comment-3592</guid>
		<description>Why do you hate freedom, Adam?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do you hate freedom, Adam?</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2007/09/20/cease-and-desist/comment-page-1/#comment-3591</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 01:38:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=1494#comment-3591</guid>
		<description>The point with the ISP, it seems to me, is that if you host thousands or tens of thousands of sites, pretty much whatever the standard applied to libel cases, you are not going to be able to check the content through with a lawyer. As I recall, it was the decision that ISPs were liable that chilled the ISPS, not the (pre-existing) British libel laws.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The point with the ISP, it seems to me, is that if you host thousands or tens of thousands of sites, pretty much whatever the standard applied to libel cases, you are not going to be able to check the content through with a lawyer. As I recall, it was the decision that ISPs were liable that chilled the ISPS, not the (pre-existing) British libel laws.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2007/09/20/cease-and-desist/comment-page-1/#comment-3590</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 01:36:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=1494#comment-3590</guid>
		<description>You aren&#039;t &#039;presumed guilty&#039; -- it&#039;s not a criminal trial.

You have to provide evidence. Of course, if you can, you won&#039;t end up screwed paying lawyers, which you will if winners generally pay all or some of their own costs. I&#039;d rather have it that way than have it so that I can be right, win and still end up out of pocket. What did I do to deserve that?

The case that got so much attention, with the CUP book, was a balls-up by CUP. When they looked at what they were publishing, they knew it too, so they rolled over straight away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You aren&#8217;t &#8216;presumed guilty&#8217; &#8212; it&#8217;s not a criminal trial.</p>
<p>You have to provide evidence. Of course, if you can, you won&#8217;t end up screwed paying lawyers, which you will if winners generally pay all or some of their own costs. I&#8217;d rather have it that way than have it so that I can be right, win and still end up out of pocket. What did I do to deserve that?</p>
<p>The case that got so much attention, with the CUP book, was a balls-up by CUP. When they looked at what they were publishing, they knew it too, so they rolled over straight away.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2007/09/20/cease-and-desist/comment-page-1/#comment-3589</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 01:32:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=1494#comment-3589</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t disagree that the problem belongs with the bloggers.  Though, by the way, in the United States you still have to back up harmful accusations, you just aren&#039;t presumed guilty from the start.  The difference is that every time, in the UK, somebody levies a charge that they&#039;re being libeled, the presumption is that they&#039;re right.  Thus, everything printed anywhere is judged libelous until proven otherwise, essentially.  Which is ridiculous, if you ask me.  

If you&#039;re levying a charge against somebody, my thinking is, you should be able to prove that said charge has substance before it even gets INTO a question of who&#039;s right.  But that&#039;s me.  

The problem, it seems to me, is less that ISPs are liable (I&#039;m kind of thinking they should be, at least on some level), it&#039;s the huge weight that the mere threat of a libel charge carries, to the point where it&#039;s always going to make more sense to roll over straight away, regardless of how right you are or may be.  That will apply, as I said, to bloggers as well as ISPs.  We&#039;re hosted in the UK, I don&#039;t make it practice to say things that I&#039;m not able to back up, but are you or anybody else going to stick your neck out on my behalf if somebody comes to us threating to sue?  No matter how right I am?  I&#039;m not going to stick my OWN neck out on that front, and who can blame me?   

It would be nice to have available some sort of buffer in those cases, is all I&#039;m saying.  Say, a presumption that speech is worth protecting unless a plaintiff can give good reason why not.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t disagree that the problem belongs with the bloggers.  Though, by the way, in the United States you still have to back up harmful accusations, you just aren&#8217;t presumed guilty from the start.  The difference is that every time, in the UK, somebody levies a charge that they&#8217;re being libeled, the presumption is that they&#8217;re right.  Thus, everything printed anywhere is judged libelous until proven otherwise, essentially.  Which is ridiculous, if you ask me.  </p>
<p>If you&#8217;re levying a charge against somebody, my thinking is, you should be able to prove that said charge has substance before it even gets INTO a question of who&#8217;s right.  But that&#8217;s me.  </p>
<p>The problem, it seems to me, is less that ISPs are liable (I&#8217;m kind of thinking they should be, at least on some level), it&#8217;s the huge weight that the mere threat of a libel charge carries, to the point where it&#8217;s always going to make more sense to roll over straight away, regardless of how right you are or may be.  That will apply, as I said, to bloggers as well as ISPs.  We&#8217;re hosted in the UK, I don&#8217;t make it practice to say things that I&#8217;m not able to back up, but are you or anybody else going to stick your neck out on my behalf if somebody comes to us threating to sue?  No matter how right I am?  I&#8217;m not going to stick my OWN neck out on that front, and who can blame me?   </p>
<p>It would be nice to have available some sort of buffer in those cases, is all I&#8217;m saying.  Say, a presumption that speech is worth protecting unless a plaintiff can give good reason why not.</p>
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