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	<title>Comments on: Saudi terror, British censorship</title>
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	<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2007/08/01/saudi-terror-british-self-censorship/</link>
	<description>"A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one."</description>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2007/08/01/saudi-terror-british-self-censorship/comment-page-1/#comment-2994</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 17:01:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=1171#comment-2994</guid>
		<description>Incidentally, I don&#039;t think that the burden of proof is as high as it is in criminal cases (ie, you don&#039;t have to prove your accusations beyond reasonable doubt).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Incidentally, I don&#8217;t think that the burden of proof is as high as it is in criminal cases (ie, you don&#8217;t have to prove your accusations beyond reasonable doubt).</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2007/08/01/saudi-terror-british-self-censorship/comment-page-1/#comment-2993</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 16:59:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=1171#comment-2993</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think that the burden of proof is on the wrong end; this is civil law (not criminal law, where the burden of proof is set high because the state has so much power). The effect is that if I am going to say something about you &lt;em&gt;that is going to harm you&lt;/em&gt;, I have to be able to show that it is true. That doesn&#039;t sound enormously unreasonable to me.

Indeed, if you settle out of court, you have no recourse. That is why settling out of court should be a course of action when you know you&#039;re going to lose because you&#039;re wrong; unlike in the US, going to court won&#039;t cripple you if you win, so settlements where you believe you&#039;ll win but it&#039;s cheaper to settle than go to court and win, they are rarer in the UK.

It should be noted that the system that we&#039;re talking about is pretty old and seems to work, in general. The only objectionable thing reported there was the issue of standing, to my mind; if the publisher released it in the UK then that&#039;s their fault, but if Amazon just did a couple of imports, then it&#039;s probably down to them, instead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think that the burden of proof is on the wrong end; this is civil law (not criminal law, where the burden of proof is set high because the state has so much power). The effect is that if I am going to say something about you <em>that is going to harm you</em>, I have to be able to show that it is true. That doesn&#8217;t sound enormously unreasonable to me.</p>
<p>Indeed, if you settle out of court, you have no recourse. That is why settling out of court should be a course of action when you know you&#8217;re going to lose because you&#8217;re wrong; unlike in the US, going to court won&#8217;t cripple you if you win, so settlements where you believe you&#8217;ll win but it&#8217;s cheaper to settle than go to court and win, they are rarer in the UK.</p>
<p>It should be noted that the system that we&#8217;re talking about is pretty old and seems to work, in general. The only objectionable thing reported there was the issue of standing, to my mind; if the publisher released it in the UK then that&#8217;s their fault, but if Amazon just did a couple of imports, then it&#8217;s probably down to them, instead.</p>
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		<title>By: Rojas</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2007/08/01/saudi-terror-british-self-censorship/comment-page-1/#comment-2990</link>
		<dc:creator>Rojas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 16:38:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=1171#comment-2990</guid>
		<description>The point, though, is that the burden of proof seems to lie on the wrong side where libel is concerned.

Look, I don&#039;t deny the &lt;em&gt;possibility&lt;/em&gt; that both Ehrenfeld and the CUP were flat damn wrong and deserved to lose.  My point is that under existing British law, it seems not to matter.  Verdicts and settlements like these send a message to &lt;em&gt;everybody&lt;/em&gt; associated with controversial issues, and the message is &quot;shut up, even if you&#039;re right, or you might get sued.&quot;  That&#039;s not a message conducive to a democratic society.

Surely the reversal of presumption in these cases would protect free speech while still punishing outright lies.  It works pretty well across the pond.

As for the later reversal of verdicts, that&#039;s only workable in circumstances where people keep fighting following a conviction.  Having settled out of court, the CUP has no recourse even if every word they printed proves true.  A trial need not occur for speech to be chilled.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The point, though, is that the burden of proof seems to lie on the wrong side where libel is concerned.</p>
<p>Look, I don&#8217;t deny the <em>possibility</em> that both Ehrenfeld and the CUP were flat damn wrong and deserved to lose.  My point is that under existing British law, it seems not to matter.  Verdicts and settlements like these send a message to <em>everybody</em> associated with controversial issues, and the message is &#8220;shut up, even if you&#8217;re right, or you might get sued.&#8221;  That&#8217;s not a message conducive to a democratic society.</p>
<p>Surely the reversal of presumption in these cases would protect free speech while still punishing outright lies.  It works pretty well across the pond.</p>
<p>As for the later reversal of verdicts, that&#8217;s only workable in circumstances where people keep fighting following a conviction.  Having settled out of court, the CUP has no recourse even if every word they printed proves true.  A trial need not occur for speech to be chilled.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2007/08/01/saudi-terror-british-self-censorship/comment-page-1/#comment-2989</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 11:27:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=1171#comment-2989</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t have a problem with the UK libel laws themselves. The way that standing was achieved in the first case looks pretty dubious, as described there, however.

It&#039;s normal that entire press runs are destroyed in libel cases. In fact, a friend of mine had it happen to his first press run. That&#039;s the sort of thing that editors should be on top of.

Demonstrably truthful speech isn&#039;t libellous. Irving lost his case, as you say, and had to pay both sides&#039; costs (another feature of the UK legal system that I like) and ended up broke as a result. If CUP have backed down, it may just be because they realise that they can&#039;t demonstrate the truth of their claims, ie, they made an error. Why go through a trial you know you&#039;ll lose, and have to pay both sides&#039; lawyers on top of whatever verdict is achieved?

Galloway won because the Telegraph couldn&#039;t prove their case; if, however, the victory came about as a result of perjury, Galloway&#039;s going to prison (as did Jonathan Aitken and Jeffrey Archer, both former MPs themselves, who perjured their way to libel victory with help from others). If they lost as a result of perjury however, that&#039;s not an indictment of the Telegraph&#039;s case and they&#039;ll get the verdict reversed and Galloways going to clink.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t have a problem with the UK libel laws themselves. The way that standing was achieved in the first case looks pretty dubious, as described there, however.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s normal that entire press runs are destroyed in libel cases. In fact, a friend of mine had it happen to his first press run. That&#8217;s the sort of thing that editors should be on top of.</p>
<p>Demonstrably truthful speech isn&#8217;t libellous. Irving lost his case, as you say, and had to pay both sides&#8217; costs (another feature of the UK legal system that I like) and ended up broke as a result. If CUP have backed down, it may just be because they realise that they can&#8217;t demonstrate the truth of their claims, ie, they made an error. Why go through a trial you know you&#8217;ll lose, and have to pay both sides&#8217; lawyers on top of whatever verdict is achieved?</p>
<p>Galloway won because the Telegraph couldn&#8217;t prove their case; if, however, the victory came about as a result of perjury, Galloway&#8217;s going to prison (as did Jonathan Aitken and Jeffrey Archer, both former MPs themselves, who perjured their way to libel victory with help from others). If they lost as a result of perjury however, that&#8217;s not an indictment of the Telegraph&#8217;s case and they&#8217;ll get the verdict reversed and Galloways going to clink.</p>
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