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	<title>Comments on: Hersh, on Taguba, on torture</title>
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	<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2007/06/18/hersh-on-taguba-on-torture/</link>
	<description>"A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one."</description>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2007/06/18/hersh-on-taguba-on-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-2351</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jun 2007 16:03:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=825#comment-2351</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll make that claim for you.

That is representative of conservative blogs in general.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll make that claim for you.</p>
<p>That is representative of conservative blogs in general.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2007/06/18/hersh-on-taguba-on-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-2346</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:44:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=825#comment-2346</guid>
		<description>Did a quick check of a small number of sites (so, no claims to representativeness). Basically I was looking for &#039;Hersh&#039; or &#039;Taguba&#039; and using search functions if they have them, or else searching on what is displayed in the browser in an index view of the blog main page for the last two or three days.

Nothing on the Corner that I could find. Didn&#039;t find anything at MichelleMalkin.com, but her new site isn&#039;t working properly so maybe it&#039;s there somewhere and I just didn&#039;t find it. Didn&#039;t find anything at Captain&#039;s Quarters. Couldn&#039;t find anything at Pajamas Media, either.

Looked at a couple of commuity sites: Freerepublic have a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1852380/posts#comment?q=1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;thread&lt;/a&gt; on it, many of the comments being to the effect that Hersh is a lying scumbag, or similar. Couldn&#039;t find anything at RedState (apart from a mention of Hersh as being on one of the morning political shows).

Again, no claims that this is representative of conservative blogs in general.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did a quick check of a small number of sites (so, no claims to representativeness). Basically I was looking for &#8216;Hersh&#8217; or &#8216;Taguba&#8217; and using search functions if they have them, or else searching on what is displayed in the browser in an index view of the blog main page for the last two or three days.</p>
<p>Nothing on the Corner that I could find. Didn&#8217;t find anything at MichelleMalkin.com, but her new site isn&#8217;t working properly so maybe it&#8217;s there somewhere and I just didn&#8217;t find it. Didn&#8217;t find anything at Captain&#8217;s Quarters. Couldn&#8217;t find anything at Pajamas Media, either.</p>
<p>Looked at a couple of commuity sites: Freerepublic have a <a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1852380/posts#comment?q=1" rel="nofollow">thread</a> on it, many of the comments being to the effect that Hersh is a lying scumbag, or similar. Couldn&#8217;t find anything at RedState (apart from a mention of Hersh as being on one of the morning political shows).</p>
<p>Again, no claims that this is representative of conservative blogs in general.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2007/06/18/hersh-on-taguba-on-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-2327</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jun 2007 15:33:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=825#comment-2327</guid>
		<description>Well, Hersh is a rabid guy whe it comes to his political opinions, but his reporting has been about the best investigative journalism work in the last 50 years.  From Vietnam to Abu Gharib.  He can hit a story from a wrong angle sometimes, but he&#039;s rarely wrong, and in this case, backed up by so much presumably on-the-record stuff, it&#039;d have to be a pretty solid case to refute it.  

Good luck on finding conservative reaction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Hersh is a rabid guy whe it comes to his political opinions, but his reporting has been about the best investigative journalism work in the last 50 years.  From Vietnam to Abu Gharib.  He can hit a story from a wrong angle sometimes, but he&#8217;s rarely wrong, and in this case, backed up by so much presumably on-the-record stuff, it&#8217;d have to be a pretty solid case to refute it.  </p>
<p>Good luck on finding conservative reaction.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2007/06/18/hersh-on-taguba-on-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-2324</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jun 2007 15:29:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=825#comment-2324</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not an enormous Hersh fan (although I&#039;m not inclined to disbelieve everything he says, or anything like that), but I respect Taguba and, unless Taguba refutes the content of the Hersh article, I am inclined to take it as significant further evidence that Abu Ghraib was a lot less accidental than it has, by many of our fellow conservatives, been portrayed to be.

I&#039;d like to see some reaction to the Hersh piece on the conservative blogs (will try to search some out, but haven&#039;t really looked yet).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not an enormous Hersh fan (although I&#8217;m not inclined to disbelieve everything he says, or anything like that), but I respect Taguba and, unless Taguba refutes the content of the Hersh article, I am inclined to take it as significant further evidence that Abu Ghraib was a lot less accidental than it has, by many of our fellow conservatives, been portrayed to be.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d like to see some reaction to the Hersh piece on the conservative blogs (will try to search some out, but haven&#8217;t really looked yet).</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2007/06/18/hersh-on-taguba-on-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-2319</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jun 2007 14:06:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=825#comment-2319</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been meaning to get to this, but was sort of waiting for Sully&#039;s more extended thoughts.

Taguba&#039;s original report, even though is sounds like it was hand-tied, was still shocking.  It basically outlined, between the lines, a national program of torture de facto legalized in secret and, where bad publicity was created, responsibility for it was punted off on the grunts (responsibility in the military is generally supposed to go up; after Abu Gharib, it was clearly going down; rarely has the generic private been so cynically skape-goated in what is, really, a program determined by generals and civil political leadership (not that the private should have avoided consequences, but it was pretty damn clear that it wasn&#039;t some late night spontaneous decision on his part).

At this point, anybody who can look at the evidence and not conclude that we have systematically institutionalized and legalized torture, is working very hard indeed to fool themselves.  There&#039;s simply no other conclusion to reasonably be reached.  That needs to be dragged out into the middle of the street.  So far, pro-torture folks have gotten by by skirting the issue, trying to mitigate the reality of it with ridiculous hypotheticals, feigned &quot;real world&quot;ism, and constant side-stepping.  The real dichotomy is easy.  We either torture, or we don&#039;t.  You&#039;re either supporting one side of that equation, or the other.  I&#039;m not an absolutist on most issues, but there&#039;s no way not to be on this one.  The debate is that simple, and for those of us who are against the thought of America as a nation that routinely embraces and utilizes torture, we have a responsibility to immediately stomp our foot down when the pedants, the mitigists, the &lt;i&gt;24&lt;/i&gt; Republicans, start trying to repackage the terms of the debate because they don&#039;t have the balls to say what line it is they&#039;re really pushing, which is that torture needs to now be an accepted facet of American policy.   

The sad truth is, and I mean this not as invective or hyperbole, the architects of our war policy in the Bush administration are war criminals.  That&#039;s another absolutely unavoidable conclusion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been meaning to get to this, but was sort of waiting for Sully&#8217;s more extended thoughts.</p>
<p>Taguba&#8217;s original report, even though is sounds like it was hand-tied, was still shocking.  It basically outlined, between the lines, a national program of torture de facto legalized in secret and, where bad publicity was created, responsibility for it was punted off on the grunts (responsibility in the military is generally supposed to go up; after Abu Gharib, it was clearly going down; rarely has the generic private been so cynically skape-goated in what is, really, a program determined by generals and civil political leadership (not that the private should have avoided consequences, but it was pretty damn clear that it wasn&#8217;t some late night spontaneous decision on his part).</p>
<p>At this point, anybody who can look at the evidence and not conclude that we have systematically institutionalized and legalized torture, is working very hard indeed to fool themselves.  There&#8217;s simply no other conclusion to reasonably be reached.  That needs to be dragged out into the middle of the street.  So far, pro-torture folks have gotten by by skirting the issue, trying to mitigate the reality of it with ridiculous hypotheticals, feigned &#8220;real world&#8221;ism, and constant side-stepping.  The real dichotomy is easy.  We either torture, or we don&#8217;t.  You&#8217;re either supporting one side of that equation, or the other.  I&#8217;m not an absolutist on most issues, but there&#8217;s no way not to be on this one.  The debate is that simple, and for those of us who are against the thought of America as a nation that routinely embraces and utilizes torture, we have a responsibility to immediately stomp our foot down when the pedants, the mitigists, the <i>24</i> Republicans, start trying to repackage the terms of the debate because they don&#8217;t have the balls to say what line it is they&#8217;re really pushing, which is that torture needs to now be an accepted facet of American policy.   </p>
<p>The sad truth is, and I mean this not as invective or hyperbole, the architects of our war policy in the Bush administration are war criminals.  That&#8217;s another absolutely unavoidable conclusion.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://thecrossedpond.com/2007/06/18/hersh-on-taguba-on-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-2316</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jun 2007 13:52:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecrossedpond.com/?p=825#comment-2316</guid>
		<description>I just re-read it and should have also quoted its last paragraph, which is a statement by Gen. Taguba:

&lt;blockquote&gt;“From the moment a soldier enlists, we inculcate loyalty, duty, honor, integrity, and selfless service,” Taguba said. “And yet when we get to the senior-officer level we forget those values. I know that my peers in the Army will be mad at me for speaking out, but the fact is that we violated the laws of land warfare in Abu Ghraib. We violated the tenets of the Geneva Convention. We violated our own principles and we violated the core of our military values. The stress of combat is not an excuse, and I believe, even today, that those civilian and military leaders responsible should be held accountable.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just re-read it and should have also quoted its last paragraph, which is a statement by Gen. Taguba:</p>
<blockquote><p>“From the moment a soldier enlists, we inculcate loyalty, duty, honor, integrity, and selfless service,” Taguba said. “And yet when we get to the senior-officer level we forget those values. I know that my peers in the Army will be mad at me for speaking out, but the fact is that we violated the laws of land warfare in Abu Ghraib. We violated the tenets of the Geneva Convention. We violated our own principles and we violated the core of our military values. The stress of combat is not an excuse, and I believe, even today, that those civilian and military leaders responsible should be held accountable.”</p></blockquote>
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